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11UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURTFOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIASAN FRANCISCO DIVISION2345678UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,PLAINTIFF,CASE NO.VS.CR-16-00166-RSSAN FRANCISCO, CALIFORNIAISLAM SAID NATSHEH,DECEMBER 13, 2016DEFENDANT.PAGES 1 - 3991011TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGSBEFORE THE HONORABLE RICHARD SEEBORGUNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE12A-P-P-E-A-R-A-N-C-E-S1314FOR THE PLAINTIFF:OFFICE OF THE UNITED STATES ATTORNEYBY:ELISE BECKER450 GOLDEN GATE AVENUE, 11TH FLOORSAN FRANCISCO, CALIFORNIA 94102FOR THE DEFENDANT:OFFICE OF THE FEDERAL PUBLIC DEFENDERBY:CANDIS LEA MITCHELL459 GOLDEN GATE AVENUE, ROOM 19-6884SAN FRANCISCO, CALIFORNIA 94102U.S. PROBATION:JILL SPITALIERI151617181920212223OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER:IRENE L. RODRIGUEZ, CSR, RMR, CRRCERTIFICATE NUMBER 8074PROCEEDINGS RECORDED BY MECHANICAL STENOGRAPHY,TRANSCRIPT PRODUCED WITH COMPUTER.2425UNITED STATES COURT REPORTERS
21SAN JOSE, CALIFORNIA2DECEMBER 13, 2016P R O C E E D I N G S02:55PM3(COURT CONVENED AT 2:55 P.M.8)02:55PM402:55PM502:55PM6MS. BECKER:02:55PM7AFTERNOON, YOUR HONOR.02:55PM8THE COURT:02:55PM9MS. MITCHELL:02:55PM10CANDICE MITCHELL FROM THE FEDERAL PUBLIC DEFENDER'S OFFICE ON02:56PM11BEHALF OF MR. NATSHEH WHO IS PRESENT BEFORE THE 6MS. BECKER:02:56PM17THE COURT:02:56PM1802:56PM19MS. MITCHELL:02:56PM20THE COURT:02:56PM21IN THE PRESENTENCE REPORT TO CERTAIN LANGUAGE THAT HAD BEEN02:56PM22ASCRIBED TO THE DEFENDANT.02:56PM2302:56PM24MS. MITCHELL:02:56PM25THE COURT:THE CLERK:CALLING CASE CR-16-166, UNITED STATESVERSUS ISLAM SAID NATSHEH.THE COURT:ELISE BECKER FOR THE GOVERNMENT.GOODGOOD AFTERNOON, MS. BECKER.GOOD AFTERNOON, YOUR HONOR.GOOD AFTERNOON.THIS IS THE TIME ANDDATE SET FOR SENTENCING IN THIS MATTER.HAVE COUNSEL HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO REVIEW THE PRESENTENCEREPORT?YES, YOUR HONOR.AND, MS. MITCHELL, HAVE YOU HAD THEOPPORTUNITY TO DISCUSS IT WITH MR. NATSHEH?YES, YOUR HONOR.THERE WAS ONE OBJECTION THAT WAS NOTEDTHAT APPEARED TO BE THE ONLY ISSUE.IS THAT THE ONLY ISSUE THAT IS REQUIRING RESOLUTION?YES, YOUR HONOR.OKAY.I DID REVIEW THE OBJECTION, AND IUNITED STATES COURT REPORTERS
302:56PM1REVIEWED THE PROBATION OFFICER'S RESPONSE.02:56PM2ANYTHING FURTHER YOU WANT TO SAY?02:56PM3MS. MITCHELL:02:56PM4THE COURT:02:56PM5THOSE STATEMENTS ARE SET FORTH BY WAY OF BACKGROUND02:56PM6INFORMATION, AND SO I WILL OVERRULE THE OBJECTION.02:56PM702:57PM8REPORT, AND I REVIEWED THE OPEN PLEA APPLICATION, AND I'VE02:57PM9REVIEWED THE GOVERNMENT'S SENTENCING MEMORANDUM THAT INCLUDES02:57PM10SOME MATERIAL FROM THE CASE IN THE DISTRICT OF MINNESOTA WHICH02:57PM11HAS SOME COMPARABLES AND THEN ALSO THE GOVERNMENT'S REPLY02:57PM12BRIEF, I REVIEWED THE DEFENDANT'S MEMORANDUM, INCLUDING LETTERS02:57PM13FROM MR. NATSHEH'S YOUNGER SISTER, FATHER, FRIENDS, COWORKER,02:57PM14CLERICAL INDIVIDUAL, AND AUNT AND UNCLE.02:57PM15OUR STARTING POINT IS ALWAYS THE ADVISORY SENTENCING02:57PM16GUIDELINES WHICH AS A RESULT OF THE TERRORIST ENHANCEMENT02:57PM17RESULTS IN A GUIDELINE CALCULATION AS I THINK IS CORRECTLY SET02:57PM18FORTH IN THE PRESENTENCE REPORT OF A TOTAL OFFENSE LEVEL OF 3702:57PM19AND A CRIMINAL HISTORY CATEGORY OF 6, AND THAT'S THE RESULT OF02:57PM20THE ENHANCEMENT BECAUSE OTHERWISE THERE'S NO CRIMINAL HISTORY.02:57PM2102:57PM22OF 360 MONTHS TO LIFE.02:58PM23STATUTE, AS I UNDERSTAND IT, IS ON THE ONE COUNT INFORMATION02:58PM24THAT IS INVOLVED HERE IS A 20-YEAR MAXIMUM.02:58PM25MAXIMUM PENALTY THAT COULD BE IMPOSED IN THIS INSTANCE.NO, YOUR HONOR.ALL RIGHT.I HAVE REVIEWED IT.I THINKI -- JUST SO IT'S CLEAR, I HAVE REVIEWED THE PRESENTENCETHAT WOULD YIELD AN ADVISORY SENTENCING GUIDELINE RANGETHE STATUTORY MAXIMUM UNDER THEUNITED STATES COURT REPORTERSSO THAT IS THE
402:58PM1THE PROBATION DEPARTMENT IN THEIR REPORT RECOMMENDS THE02:58PM2STATUTORY MAXIMUM.02:58PM3VARIANCE TO 15 YEARS WITH A 15-YEAR TERM OF SUPERVISED RELEASE,02:58PM4AND THE DEFENSE IS ARGUING FOR A SENTENCE OF 48 MONTHS INVOKING02:58PM5A CASE THAT THEY POINT ME TO IS A COMPARABLE.02:58PM602:58PM702:58PM8RECOMMENDATION THAT IS SLIGHTLY BELOW THE STATUTORY MAXIMUM FOR02:58PM9SEVERAL REASONS.02:58PM1002:58PM11IS ALMOST A NONSTARTER BECAUSE THE GUIDELINES ARE ABOVE THE02:58PM12STATUTORY MAXIMUM, BUT IF WE WERE TO LOOK AT THE CASE AND AS WE02:58PM13MUST AS A 20-YEAR CEILING TO IT, THE QUESTION IS WHERE DOES THE02:59PM14CASE FALL WITHIN THAT RANGE?02:59PM1502:59PM16THE COURT RELATING TO CASES ACROSS THE NATION.02:59PM17FACTS ARE ALWAYS A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT.02:59PM18PREPARATION FOR COMBAT OR FOR TRAVEL OR FOR FUNDING.02:59PM1902:59PM20INVOLVES THE LOWEST END OF ALL OF THOSE FACTORS?02:59PM21NO RECRUITMENT, NO MONEY BEING ADVANCED, NO VIOLENCE, NO02:59PM22ACTIVITY BEYOND POST DATES, WHICH ARE OFFENSIVE NO DOUBT ABOUT02:59PM23IT, AND THEN APPREHENSION AT THE AIRPORT.02:59PM2402:59PM25THE GOVERNMENT RECOMMENDS A DOWNWARDMS. BECKER?MS. BECKER:YOUR HONOR, THE GOVERNMENT HAS MADE AOBVIOUSLY, AS THE COURT HAS INDICATED, THE STARTING POINTTHE GOVERNMENT HAS PROVIDED SOME BACKGROUND INFORMATION TOTHE COURT:OBVIOUSLY THESOME INVOLVE MOREWELL, ISN'T IT FAIR TO SAY THAT THIS ONETHIS INVOLVESHE'S VERY FORTUNATE HE WAS APPREHENDED BECAUSE WE WILLNEVER KNOW WHAT MIGHT HAVE HAPPENED AND PART OF YOUR ARGUMENT,UNITED STATES COURT REPORTERS
502:59PM1WHICH I THINK IS A FAIR ONE, IS THAT HAD MR. NATSHEH MADE IT TO02:59PM2SYRIA AND THEN FURTHER RADICALIZED AND BEING A CITIZEN AND COME02:59PM3BACK, WE DON'T KNOW WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED.02:59PM4BECOME DISSOLUTIONED.03:00PM503:00PM603:00PM703:00PM8YOU POINT OUT THESE COMPARABLES HAVE DIFFERENT FACTORS.03:00PM9THINK THIS ONE HAS ZERO FACTORS BEYOND THE ABSOLUTE MOST BASIC03:00PM1003:00PM1103:00PM12RESPECTFULLY SUBMIT THAT THERE ARE OTHER FACTORS AT PLAY HERE03:00PM13AND THAT HE DOES NOT POSE SERIOUS THREAT ON ANY OF THOSE03:00PM14GROUNDS.03:00PM1503:00PM16THE COURT THAT HE WAS OBTAINING MILITARY TRAINING IN THE UNITED03:00PM17STATES, THAT HE HAD ATTEMPTED TO PURCHASE ANY WEAPONS HERE, AS03:00PM18THE PSR REFLECTS, THERE WAS SOME DISCUSSION ABOUT WHETHER OR03:00PM19NOT AN ACT SHOULD BE COMMITTED IN THE UNITED STATES AND IN03:00PM20ADDITION THERE WAS --03:00PM21THE COURT:03:00PM22GUESS MY POINT WAS THAT WHEN I'M LOOKING AT THE COMPARABLES03:00PM23THAT BOTH SIDES ARE POINTING ME TO, IT APPEARS FROM THE03:00PM24SPECTRUM OF ACTIVITY THAT IN THE WORLD OF AN EFFORT TO JOIN A03:01PM25TERRORIST ORGANIZATION OR PARTICIPATE WITH A TERRORISTHE MIGHT HAVEHOWEVER, HE ALSO MIGHT HAVE COME BACK AND BECOME A DANGERTO THE UNITED STATES.SO I UNDERSTAND THE ARGUMENT.BUT IN TERMS OF LOOKING AT ALL THE COMPARABLES, I DON'T -IUNLESS I MISREAD.MS. BECKER:YOUR HONOR, THE GOVERNMENT WOULDSO WHILE THE GOVERNMENT HAS NOT PRESENTED ANY EVIDENCE TOI'M NOT -- I UNDERSTAND THAT, BUT IUNITED STATES COURT REPORTERS
603:01PM1ORGANIZATION, THIS APPEARS TO BE ON ONE END OF THE SPECTRUM03:01PM2THAT BEING WHEN I'M LOOKING AT THE COMPARABLES THE MINIMUM03:01PM3AMOUNT OF ILY SERIOUS, I DO, BUT ALL OF THE OTHER COMPARABLES03:01PM7SEEM TO HAVE SOMETHING ELSE GOING ON, YOU KNOW, ADVANCING03:01PM8MONEY, OR GOING TO TRAINING, OR, YOU KNOW, THAT KIND OF THING.03:01PM903:01PM10ARE SIMILARLY SITUATED AND THAT PEOPLE WERE ARRESTED AT THE03:01PM11AIRPORT ATTEMPTING TO TRAVEL.03:01PM12TO GET THEIR PASSPORT.03:01PM13CHARGE OF THAT NATURE.03:01PM1403:01PM15TRAVEL WITH A TRAVEL COMPANION WHERE HE HAD PURCHASED THE03:01PM16TICKET FOR THIS OTHER PERSON WHO WAS A JUVENILE WHERE THEY HAD03:01PM17HAD DISCUSSIONS ABOUT THE TRIP WHERE HE HAD COMMUNICATED WITH03:02PM18OTHERS ABOUT TRAVELLING AND JOINING ISIL, I'D SUBMIT --03:02PM1903:02PM20THAT INDIVIDUAL, RIGHT?03:02PM21UP, AS I UNDERSTAND IT, BUT HE'S COORDINATING THE TRAVEL BUT03:02PM22HE'S -- YOU'RE NOT -- AT LEAST IT DIDN'T SEEM TO BE A03:02PM23SUGGESTION THAT HE HAD ACTIVELY RECRUITED THIS MINOR03:02PM24PARTICIPANT?03:02PM25I JUST DON'T SEE ANY CASE IN WHICH THERE'SAND I'M NOT SUGGESTING THAT IN AND OF ITSELF THAT'S NOTMS. BECKER:I THINK THERE ARE SEVERAL CASES THATSOME HAD LIED ON THEIR PASSPORTTHERE MAY HAVE BEEN AN ADDITIONALBUT TO THE EXTENT THAT THIS DEFENDANT WAS ATTEMPTING TOTHE COURT:MS. BECKER:THERE'S NO INDICATION THAT HE RECRUITEDIN FACT, THE INDIVIDUAL DIDN'T SHOWHE WAS PAYING FOR HIS TICKET.UNITED STATES COURT REPORTERS
703:02PM1THE COURT:OKAY.03:02PM2MS. BECKER:03:02PM3IDEA IT WAS TO TRAVEL.03:02PM4INTENDED ON TRAVELLING AS WELL BUT WAS UNABLE TO COMPLETE HIS03:02PM5TRAVEL WHICH IS WHY HE DIDN'T SHOW UP AT THE AIRPORT, BUT03:02PM6NEVERTHELESS MR. NATSHEH IS THE ONE WHO PURCHASED THE TICKET03:02PM7AND WHO TOOK ALL OF THE PREPARATORY STEPS HERE TO OBTAIN A03:02PM8CREDIT CARD FOR THE PURPOSES OF BUYING THE TWO ROUND TRIP03:02PM9TICKETS.03:02PM1003:02PM11THERE HAD BEEN COMMUNICATIONS OVER A PERIOD OF MONTHS.03:02PM12COURSE HE HAD BEEN COMMUNICATING WITH SOMEONE IN ANOTHER03:02PM13COUNTRY ABOUT COMMITTING THE TRAVEL AS WELL.03:03PM1403:03PM15GOVERNMENT -- THE GOVERNMENT WOULD SUBMIT IT'S NOT AT THE03:03PM16LOWEST LEVEL POSSIBLE AT THAT END WHERE LITERALLY YOU HAVE A03:03PM17PERSON WHO DECIDED TO JOIN ISIL AND WENT TO THE AIRPORT AND03:03PM18ATTEMPTED TO TRAVEL.03:03PM1903:03PM20THERE WAS, AGAIN, ATTEMPT TO TRAVEL WITH ANOTHER INDIVIDUAL,03:03PM21PLANS THAT HAD BEEN MADE WITH A FEMALE IN ANOTHER COUNTRY.03:03PM22IT'S --03:03PM2303:03PM24THAT THERE WAS AN ACTUAL DISCUSSION ABOUT ENGAGING IN ACTIVITY03:03PM25IN THE UNITED STATES?SO I'M NOT GOING SO FAR AS SAYING WHOSECERTAINLY THE JUVENILE PRESUMABLYSO THE PLAN WAS HATCHED SEVERAL WEEKS AHEAD OF TIME.OFSO WHILE IT'S ON ONE END OF THE SPECTRUM, IT'S THETHERE WAS ONGOING DISCUSSION HERE OVER A PERIOD OF MONTHS.THE COURT:SOYOU HAD INDICATED IN SOME OF THE RECORDCAN YOU POINT THAT OUT TO ME OR DIRECTUNITED STATES COURT REPORTERS
803:03PM1ME TO THAT?03:03PM2MS. BECKER:03:03PM3THE COURT:03:03PM4MS. BECKER:03:04PM5PARAGRAPH ACTUALLY REFERS TO HIS POST-ARREST STATEMENT IN WHICH03:04PM6HE MAKES REFERENCE TO IT.03:04PM703:04PM8ABOUT CONDUCTING AN ATTACK INSIDE OF THE UNITED STATES, IS THAT03:04PM9WHAT YOU'RE REFERRING?03:04PM10MS. BECKER:03:04PM11DISCUSSION WITH THE MINOR WITH WHOM HE WAS GOING TO TRAVEL AS03:04PM12WELL.03:04PM13THE COURT:03:04PM14MS. BECKER:03:04PM15UNABLE TO TRAVEL, HE ASKED WHETHER OR NOT HE SHOULD DO03:04PM16SOMETHING, THE MINOR SHOULD COMMIT SOMETHING IN THE UNITED03:04PM17STATES AND THE MINOR -- I'M SORRY, AND MR. NATSHEH HAD SAID03:04PM18DON'T DO ANYTHING HERE, JUST TRY TO TRAVEL TO SYRIA.03:04PM1903:04PM2003:04PM21ALONG THE LINES OF CRAFTING AN APPROPRIATE SENTENCE, THERE WAS03:04PM22DISCUSSION IN YOUR PAPERS UNDERSTANDABLY ABOUT, YOU KNOW, THE03:04PM23DANGER OF RADICALIZATION AND ONE OF THE THINGS ANY SENTENCE IS03:04PM24TO BE DIRECTED TO IS TO AMELIORATE TO THE EXTENT THAT WE CAN03:05PM25AND MINIMIZE THAT.THE COURT:THE COURT:IN PARAGRAPH 11 OF THE PSR, YOUR HONOR.OKAY.AND IT'S COMMUNICATION THAT -- THISADMITTED THAT ONE YEAR PRIOR HE THOUGHTYES, YOUR HONOR.THERE WAS AOKAY.WHEN IT WAS DETERMINED THAT HE WASUH-HUH.LET ME SHIFT THE FOCUS FOR A MOMENT AND JUST ASK YOU ABOUTUNITED STATES COURT REPORTERS
903:05PM1IS THERE ANY OR ARE THERE ANY PROGRAMS AT ALL OTHER THAN03:05PM2SUPERVISED RELEASE, ANY SENTENCE OR CUSTODIAL PART OF THE03:05PM3SENTENCE THAT IS DIRECTIVE TO THE BUREAU OF PRISONS, OR ANYONE03:05PM4ELSE, DIRECTS TOWARDS THAT PROBLEM?03:05PM503:05PM6COUNSELLING, SUBSTANCE COUNSELLING.03:05PM7OF COUNSELLING OR IS THIS GOING TO JUST BE A SITUATION OF THE03:05PM8HOPE IS OVER A CERTAIN PERIOD OF TIME TO THE EXTENT THAT THERE03:05PM9IS ANY RADICALIZATION IT WILL GO AWAY?03:05PM1003:05PM11FOCUSSED APPROACH TO REHABILITATION BOTH WITHIN THE BUREAU OF03:05PM12PRISONS AND UPON RELEASE.03:05PM1303:05PM14SENTENCED IN OUR DISTRICT AND SO, THEREFORE, I'M NOT FAMILIAR03:05PM15WITH WHETHER --03:05PM1603:05PM17THE MATERIALS CORRECTLY.03:06PM18RELEVANT IF THERE ARE PROGRAMS FOR THIS SPECIFIC CONCERN OUT03:06PM19THERE.03:06PM2003:06PM21COMMUNICATIONS WITH THE BUREAU OF PRISONS, AND THERE ARE03:06PM22PROGRAMS THAT ARE IN PLACE IN OTHER DISTRICTS WHERE THEY HAVE03:06PM23SEEN MORE CASES PROSECUTED AND CONVICTED AND SENTENCED.03:06PM24SO, AGAIN, THIS IS --03:06PM25THE COURT:WE HAVE MENTAL HEALTH COUNSELLING, AND WE HAVE DRUGMS. BECKER:NO.DO WE HAVE ANY OTHER KINDHOPEFULLY THERE WILL BE A MOREAS THE COURT MAY REALIZE, THIS IS THE FIRST CASE TO BETHE COURT:MS. BECKER:APPARENTLY 71 CASES, IF I READ SOME OFSO I WAS CURIOUS AND THOUGHT IT WASSO MAIN JUSTICE HAS BEEN ENGAGED INIS THIS ON THE SUPERVISED RELEASE PARTUNITED STATES COURT REPORTERS
1003:06PM1OR THE CUSTODIAL PART?03:06PM2MS. BECKER:03:06PM3SUPERVISED RELEASE OR OUT TO THE EXTENT THAT SOMEBODY HAS03:06PM4ACTUALLY NOT BEEN INCARCERATED YET OR SENTENCED YET.03:06PM503:06PM6THAT WE WOULD HAVE TO DISCUSS IN TERMS OF SUPERVISED RELEASE03:06PM7WHEN A PERSON RETURNS TO OUR DISTRICT IN TERMS OF HOW THAT03:06PM8WOULD BE HANDLED.03:06PM903:06PM1003:06PM1103:06PM12ORDERS IN THOSE CASES HAVE ANY SOMEWHAT LIKE THE ANALOG AND THE03:07PM13DRUG AREAS, RDAP AS WE ALL KNOW, IS THERE SOME PROGRAM THAT YOU03:07PM14CAN -- THAT THE JUDGE CAN RECOMMEND THAT THE DEFENDANT03:07PM15PARTICIPATE IVE PROGRAMS IN PLACE.03:07PM20IT HAS BEEN CATEGORIZED IN AND OF ITSELF.03:07PM21SOMETHING THAT I CAN LOOK INTO, BUT I'M NOT AWARE OF IT AT THIS03:07PM22TIME.03:07PM23THE COURT:03:07PM24PROBATION OFFICER:03:07PM25SPECIFIED PROGRAMS FOR THAT.BOTH IN THE BUREAU OF PRISONS AND ONSO, AGAIN, THIS IS NEW TO OUR DISTRICT.IT IS SOMETHINGBUT THERE ARE PROGRAMS IN PLACE IN AT LEAST A COUPLE OFDISTRICTS WHERE THEY ARE ADDRESSING THE SITUATION.THE COURT:MS. BECKER:AND DO THE JUDGMENT AND COMMITMENTYOUR HONOR, I'M NOT FAMILIAR WITHWHETHER OR NOT IT'S A SPECIALLY NAMED PROGRAM.WHAT I HAVE LEARNED ABOUT IT IS THAT IT'S SIMILAR TO OTHERI DON'T KNOW WHETHER OR NOTTHAT CERTAINLY ISDO YOU HAPPEN TO KNOW MS. SPITALIERI?I DO NOT BELIEVE THERE'S ANYI THINK THEY WOULD JUST USE IT ASUNITED STATES COURT REPORTERS
1103:07PM1KIND OF A COMPONENT OF A MENTAL HEALTH PROGRAM AND JUST MAKE IT03:07PM2MORE FOCUSSED.03:07PM3AT LEAST ON THE SUPERVISED RELEASE SIDE, SINCE THIS IS03:07PM4GOING TO BE ONE OF OUR FIRST CASES WITH THIS TYPE OF SITUATION,03:07PM5IT WOULD PROBABLY BE CONTACTING THE OTHER DISTRICTS AND FINDING03:07PM6OUT WHAT PROGRAMS THEY HAVE IN PLACE AND TRY TO IMPLEMENT03:08PM7SOMETHING VERY SIMILAR TO THAT THROUGH THE MENTAL HEALTH03:08PM8TREATMENT.03:08PM903:08PM10THE COURT:03:08PM11MS. MITCHELL:03:08PM12PROGRAM CURRENTLY SET UP IN THE BUREAU OF PRISONS TO TREAT03:08PM13INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE ACCUSED OF THIS AND IN THE PROCESS OF03:08PM14INDIVIDUALS GOING THROUGH RADICALIZATION.03:08PM1503:08PM16MINNESOTA AND MINNEAPOLIS THAT HAS HAD A NUMBER OF CASES03:08PM17RELATED TO SOMALIANS WHO HAVE BEEN RECRUITED TO PARTICIPATE IN03:08PM18TERRORIST TYPE OF ACTIVITIES.03:08PM19TOOK A PARTICULAR INTEREST IN THIS TOPIC AND WANTED TO TRY AND03:08PM20NIP IT IN THE BUD BECAUSE THEY HAD SUCH A LARGE SOMALIAN03:08PM21POPULATION THERE THAT HAD BEEN RELOCATED AS REFUGEES AND, IN03:08PM22FACT, SPECIFICALLY THERE WERE A NUMBER OF INDIVIDUALS WHO WERE03:08PM23REACHING OUT TO OTHER PEOPLE IN THE COMMUNITY TO JOIN INTO ISIL03:08PM24OR SUPPORT THE ACTIVITIES THERE.03:08PM25MS. MITCHELL:YOUR HONOR, I CAN SPEAK ON THIS ALSO.GREAT.SO THERE IS ACTUALLY NO PARTICULARWHAT HAS HAPPENED RECENTLY IS THERE'S A DISTRICT COURT INTHE DISTRICT COURT JUDGE THEREWHAT HAPPENED WAS THAT JUDGE REACHED OUT TO PROBATION ANDUNITED STATES COURT REPORTERS
1203:08PM1THE BUREAU OF PRISONS DISCOVERED THAT THERE WAS NO PARTICULAR03:08PM2PROGRAM IN PLACE.03:08PM303:09PM4PUBLIC DEFENDER WHO WERE INVOLVED IN THOSE CASES.03:09PM5PUBLIC DEFENDER THERE IS MANNY ATWAL, AND I'VE SPOKEN WITH HER03:09PM6AT LENGTH ABOUT WHAT IS GOING ON THERE.03:09PM7CITIZEN IN THE U.K. AND WAS PERMITTED TO TRAVEL TO THE U.K. AND03:09PM8WITH SPECIFIC DIRECTIVES FROM THE JUDGE THERE TO FIND OUT WHAT03:09PM9THEY WERE DOING FOR THEIR RADICALIZATION PROGRAM THERE.03:09PM1003:09PM11THEY HAVE BEEN DOING THERE OR ESPECIALLY WITH PRETRIAL RELEASE03:09PM12WITH INDIVIDUALS WHO WERE ACCUSED OF TERRORISM CASES THERE.03:09PM13HAS A SPECIFIC NAME FOR THE PROGRAM, AND IT SLIPS MY MIND RIGHT03:09PM14NOW, BUT THEIR PROGRAM IS SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED SO THAT03:09PM15INDIVIDUALS ON PRETRIAL RELEASE CAN START THE PROCESS OF03:09PM16DERADICALIZATION AND THEY GO THROUGH A RATHER LENGTHY AND03:09PM17SUBSTANTIAL PROCESS.03:09PM18THE BUREAU OF PRISONS AND DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE HAVE TAKEN03:09PM19A LOOK AT THIS PROGRAM AND THEY'RE GOING TO TRY AND INCORPORATE03:09PM20THE TRAINING THAT PRETRIAL HAS BEEN GIVING THERE AND DELIVER03:09PM21THAT TO THE PROBATION OFFICERS NATIONWIDE.03:10PM22NOT COME INTO PLACE.03:10PM2303:10PM24DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE AND THE DISTRICT COURT JUDGE IN THAT03:10PM25SITUATION HAVE REACHED OUT TO SOMEONE WHO HAS BEEN INVOLVED INTHEY ALSO REACHED OUT TO PRETRIAL.THE JUDGE THERE THEN PASSED THE U.S. ATTORNEY AND FEDERALTHE FEDERALSHE IS ACTUALLY AAS A RESULT OF THAT THEY'VE BROUGHT BACK SOME WORK THATITHOWEVER, THAT HASSPECIFICALLY WHAT HAS HAPPENED IS THAT THE BUREAU -- THEUNITED STATES COURT REPORTERS
1303:10PM1DERADICALIZATION FOR A LONG PERIOD OF TIME IN THE U.K. AND03:10PM2WHERE THEY ARE A LITTLE FURTHER ALONG THAN US ON THIS SITUATION03:10PM3AND HE HAS GONE THROUGH THE PROCESS OF MEETING WITH INDIVIDUALS03:10PM4WHO HAD A -- KIND OF A MATRIX FOR DETERMINING HOW RADICALIZED03:10PM5THEY ARE AND THEN DETERMINES WHAT KIND OF PROCESS WOULD NEED TO03:10PM6HAPPEN FOR DERADICALIZATION FOR THAT PERSON AND THEN ALSO WHAT03:10PM7KINDS OF THERAPY THAT THEY CAN ENGAGE IN FOR PRETRIAL RELEASE03:10PM8AND WHETHER OR NOT THAT WOULD BE APPROPRIATE.03:10PM903:10PM10THE PROBATION OFFICERS AND PRETRIAL OFFICERS BOTH IN03:10PM11MINNEAPOLIS AND IN A FEW OTHER DISTRICTS WHERE THESE TYPES OF03:10PM12CASES HAVE BEEN MORE PREVALENT, BUT TO MY KNOWLEDGE THE BUREAU03:10PM13OF PRISONS HAS NO PROGRAM IN PLACE FOR ANY DERADICALIZATIONS03:11PM14RIGHT NOW WHICH IS PART OF THE REASON WHY THE JUDGE THERE WAS03:11PM15SPECIFICALLY LOOKING TO OUTSIDE SOURCES TO GET A PROGRAM03:11PM16STARTED AND PROBATION AT THE CURRENT TIME DOES NOT HAVE A FULLY03:11PM17FORMULATED PROGRAM BUT EVENTUALLY THEY WILL.03:11PM1803:11PM1903:11PM2003:11PM21ATTEMPTED TO BRIEF EVERYTHING THAT WE THINK THE COURT SHOULD BE03:11PM22AWARE OF IN THE CASE OF MR. NATSHEH, BUT WE WANT TO JUST03:11PM23BRIEFLY TOUCH ON SOME OF THE ISSUES THAT THE COURT JUST BROUGHT03:11PM24UP IN SPEAKING WITH THE U.S. ATTORNEY'S OFFICE IN THAT -- IN03:11PM25COMPARISON WITH A LOT OF THE OTHER CASES.MY UNDERSTANDING IS THAT THAT PERSON HAS STARTED TO TRAINTHE COURT:OKAY.THANK YOU.YOU CAN SHIFT BACKNOW TO WHATEVER ISSUES YOU WANT TO HIGHLIGHT FOR ME.MS. MITCHELL:SO I THINK WE'VE EXHAUSTIVELYUNITED STATES COURT REPORTERS
1403:11PM1WHAT THE COURT CAN SEE IS THAT MR. NATSHEH DOES NOT HAVE A03:11PM2LOT OF THE AGGRAVATING FACTORS THAT WERE PRESENT IN A NUMBER OF03:11PM3THE OTHER CASES.03:11PM4WAS MS. CONNOLLY WHO RECEIVED THE 48-MONTH SENTENCE OUT OF03:11PM5COLORADO WHO JOINED A U.S. ARMY PROGRAM AND SHE RECEIVED FIRST03:12PM6AID TRAINING AND SHE HAD FIREARM TRAINING AND THE FBI MET WITH03:12PM7HER MULTIPLE TIMES BEFORE SHE WAS ACTUALLY ARRESTED AT THE03:12PM8AIRPORT AS A COMPARISON TO WHAT WAS GOING ON IN MR. NATSHEH'S03:12PM9CASE.03:12PM1003:12PM11NUMBER OF OTHER CASES THAT I HAVE RECENTLY BECOME AWARE OF IN03:12PM12SPEAKING FURTHER WITH MS. ATWAL IN MINNEAPOLIS.03:12PM13CLIENTS INVOLVED IN THE CASES THAT THE JUDGE THERE HAD RECENTLY03:12PM14BEEN SENTENCED.03:12PM15RECEIVED A SENTENCE OF LESS THAN EIGHT YEARS OR TEN YEARS AND03:12PM16ONE RECEIVED A SENTENCE OF I BELIEVE LESS THAN FOUR YEARS.03:12PM17IN EACH OF THOSE CASES WHAT THE JUDGE BASICALLY NOTICED03:12PM18WAS THAT TIME IN CUSTODY IS NOT GOING TO MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE03:12PM19FOR ANY OF THESE INDIVIDUALS.03:12PM20WITH ANTI-RADICALIZATION.03:12PM21WHERE INDIVIDUALS WERE MAKING DECISIONS BASED OFF OF WHAT THEY03:12PM22BELIEVED WAS SOMETHING THAT THEY WERE GOING TO DO AND IN A03:13PM23LARGE PART FOR WHAT HE SAW WAS A HUMANITARIAN REASON.03:13PM24WERE INDIVIDUALS WHO HAD DONE THINGS HERE IN THE UNITED STATES03:13PM25WHO WERE SAYING THEMSELVES WHO WERE PREPARING TO UNDERTAKEI SPECIFICALLY BROUGHT UP THE CASE I THINK ITAND THEN I WOULD ALSO DRAW THE COURT'S ATTENTION TO AONE RECEIVED PROBATION.HER TWOANOTHER CLIENTTHERE ARE PROGRAMS THAT HELPEDTHERE'S NOT -- IT'S A SITUATIONUNITED STATES COURT REPORTERSTHESE
1503:13PM1VIOLENT ACTIONS, BUT THEY HAD ALL BEEN RECRUITED TO ISIL, AS I03:13PM2MENTIONED, PRE-2015 WHEN ISIL'S DIRECTIONS AND PROPAGANDA WERE03:13PM3MORE DIRECTED TOWARDS A HUMANITARIAN BET.03:13PM403:13PM5YES, THEY POSTED PICTURES OF THEMSELVES DOING CERTAIN THINGS03:13PM6BUT THEY WERE DOING SO AS WE ARE FREEDOM FIGHTERS AND WE'RE03:13PM7TRYING TO HELP OUR BROTHERS WITH FIGHTING ARMS IN SYRIA.03:13PM803:13PM903:13PM10MR. NATSHEH BACKED OFF FROM IT AND THEN ALSO ENCOURAGED THE03:13PM11MINOR INDIVIDUAL WE DISCUSSED NOT TO ENGAGE IN ANY 14PM16THE COURT:03:14PM17MS. MITCHELL:03:14PM18SPECIFICALLY TOLD THE JUVENILE DO NOT DO ANYTHING HERE IN THE03:14PM19UNITED STATES.03:14PM2003:14PM2103:14PM22THE MOTIVATION HERE IS ENTIRELY FOCUSSED ON YOU SAID SOMETHING03:14PM23TO THE EFFECT OF HUMANITARIAN ASPECTS OF THIS.03:14PM24CAN CHARACTERIZE IT IN THAT FASHION.03:14PM25YES, THEY POSTED PICTURES OF THEMSELVES WITH GUNS AND,THE COURT:BUT AS MS. BECKER DIRECTED ME TO, IREALIZE THERE ARE SOME ASPECTS OF THE STATEMENT THAT INDICATESBUT AT ONE POINT HE CONSIDERED ENGAGING IN VIOLENT CONDUCTIN THIS COUNTRY.MS. MITCHELL:AND THEN MADE THE CORRECT DECISIONNOT TO.WELL, TRUE.BUT THAT'S A SIGN OF -- HEAND -THE COURT:BUT TO SOME EXTENT TO YOUR POINT THATMS. MITCHELL:I DON'T THINK II WOULDN'T SAY WHOLLY BUT IT WAS --UNITED STATES COURT REPORTERS
1603:14PM1THE PROPAGANDA THAT ISIL WAS DIRECTING TOWARDS INDIVIDUALS IN03:14PM2AN ATTEMPT TO RECRUIT THEM WAS NOT AS AN EXPERT HAD NOTICED IN03:14PM32015, MID-2015, THE SHIFT IN WHAT THEY WERE DOING AND HOW THEY03:14PM4PRESENTED THEMSELVES CHANGED.03:14PM503:14PM6DEEP INTO THE PROPAGANDA.03:14PM7ALL SEE AND WE GET AGHAST AT.03:15PM8HERE THAT WE SHOULD FEEL SOLIDARITY WITH AND WE'RE SEPARATING.03:15PM9NO ONE IS DOING ANYTHING ABOUT IT, AND WE NEED TO BE AT I'M MULLING OVER IS, AS I INDICATED BEFORE, AND I THINK03:15PM15SHE DOESN'T DIRECTLY DISPUTE, MR. NATSHEH WAS APPREHENDED AT A03:15PM16POINT WHERE VERY LITTLE IN TERMS OF ACTUAL EFFORT HAD TAKEN03:15PM17PLACE.03:15PM18MS. MITCHELL:03:15PM19THE COURT:03:15PM2003:15PM2103:15PM22MUCH CREDIT DOES HE GET FOR HAVING BEEN STOPPED EARLY IN THE03:16PM23PROCESS?03:16PM24IN GOING TO SYRIA, HE WAS, AS THE GOVERNMENT POINTS OUT, AN03:16PM25AMERICAN CITIZEN, HAD THE RADICALIZATION GONE A BAD WAY, HEISIL CHANGED FROM A DIRECTIVE MORE TOWARDS -- AND THIS ISIT'S NOT THE SURFACE STUFF THAT WEIT IS THE CALL TO WE HAVE PEOPLEPEOPLE.THE COURT:NO.I READ THROUGH THE EXTENSIVEBACKGROUND THAT YOU'VE PROVIDED FOR ME.YOU KNOW, THE ISSUE THAT I WAS DISCUSSING WITH MS. BECKERSO IT WAS EARLY IN THE GAME, IF YOU WILL.YES, THAT IS CORRECT.THAT IS BOTH IN THE ONE SENSE FORTUNATE,VERY FORTUNATE FOR HIM THAT HE WAS APPREHENDED IN MANY WAYS.BUT THEN THE QUESTION IS, TO PUT IT QUITE BLUNTLY, HOWHE DOES REPRESENT THE PROSPECT THAT HAD HE SUCCEEDEDUNITED STATES COURT REPORTERS
1703:16PM1COULD HAVE WELL RETURNED TO THE UNITED STATES AND POSED A03:16PM2SIGNIFICANT DANGER.03:16PM3SO, IN OTHER WORDS, YES, IN TERMS OF LOOKING AT SOME OF03:16PM4THE COMPARABLES, HE'S IN THE GROUP THAT DIDN'T GET VERY FAR,03:16PM5BUT SHOULDN'T I TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE PROSPECT THAT HAD HE03:16PM6GOTTEN AS FAR AS HE WANTED, HE COULD REPRESENT A VERY SERIOUS03:16PM7DANGER TO THE UNITED STATES?03:16PM803:16PM903:16PM10THAT MR. NATSHEH COULD HAVE GOTTEN TO TURKEY AND DECIDED TO03:16PM11COME BACK OR HE COULD HAVE GOTTEN TO SYRIA, THE BORDER, AND03:16PM12DECIDED TO COME BACK.03:16PM13THE COURT:03:16PM1403:16PM1503:16PM16MAKE ANY INFERENCES ONE WAY OR ANOTHER ABOUT HOW IT COULD HAVE03:17PM17GONE WORSE OR IT COULD HAVE GONE BETTER.03:17PM18FRANKLY, THE PROBLEM IS WITH THIS OFFENSE, HE COMMITTED --03:17PM19THE MOMENT HE PURCHASED THE PLANE TICKET IS WHEN THE GOVERNMENT03:17PM20ESSENTIALLY COULD HAVE ARRESTED HIM FOR IT AND ANYWHERE ALONG03:17PM21THAT LINE MANY DIFFERENT THINGS COULD HAVE HAPPENED ONE WAY OR03:17PM22ANOTHER.03:17PM23THE COURT:03:17PM24MS. MITCHELL:03:17PM25MS. MITCHELL:THE COURT CAN TAKE THAT INTOCONSIDERATION, BUT THE COURT CAN ALSO TAKE INTO CONSIDERATIONSHOULD I MAKE ALL OF THE INFERENCES INHIS FAVOR?MS. MITCHELL:I DON'T THINK THAT THE COURT HAS TOTRUE.MR. NATSHEH, HOWEVER, WAS STOPPED ATA POINT WHERE ALL OF THE THINGS LEADING UP TO THE POINT WHEREUNITED STATES COURT REPORTERS
1803:17PM1HE WAS STOPPED THE COURT CAN LOOK AT AS DEFINITIVE SIGNS THAT03:17PM2THIS IS VERY LOW ON THE SCALE OF OTHER INDIVIDUALS WHO HAVE03:17PM3TAKEN A MUCH GREATER PREPARATION AND INVOLVED OTHER PEOPLE AND03:17PM4DONE FINANCIAL CONTRIBUTIONS, AND MANY OTHER THINGS THAT HE03:17PM5HIMSELF NOT DONE.03:17PM603:17PM7HE IS AND WHAT IS MORE LIKELY TO HAPPEN TO HIM AFTER HE GETS03:17PM8RELEASED.03:17PM9MYSELF, I THINK TO THE GOVERNMENT, SIGNS THAT HE IS NOT A03:18PM10PERSON WHO COULD BE A U.S. CITIZEN WITH NO DANGER TO ANYONE03:18PM11ELSE.03:18PM1203:18PM13EVERYTHING HE SAYS; THAT HE CANNOT AND WILL NOT BE A PERSON WHO03:18PM14CAN CONTRIBUTE TO SOCIETY.03:18PM15LIKE A 21-YEAR-OLD DOES AND WHO THINKS LIKE A 21-YEAR-OLD DOES.03:18PM16HE HAS NOT HAD THE CHANCE YET TO REALLY TAKE A LOOK AT03:18PM17WHERE HE WAS GOING IN HIS LIFE.03:18PM18REALLY THINK THROUGH WHAT WAS HAPPENING.03:18PM19INSTEAD, HE GOT A CREDIT CARD.03:18PM20FOR MONTHS TO BE ABLE TO MAKE THIS TRIP.03:18PM21WITH HIM ASIDE FROM A CREDIT CARD THAT HE WAS GOING TO USE TO03:18PM22MAKE THIS TRIP.03:18PM23PERSON WHO HAS BEEN THINKING ABOUT DOING THIS FOREVER AND03:18PM24ACTUALLY TAKING STEPS TO DOING IT.03:18PM25WHAT THE COURT CAN ALSO TAKE INTO CONSIDERATION IS WHEREHE'S STILL A VERY YOUNG MAN WHO HAS NOT EXHIBITED TOHE IS NOT SO RADICALIZED THAT HE STRIKES FEAR WITHHE'S A 21-YEAR-OLD AND WHO ACTSAND WHAT WAS GOING ON ANDHE DIDN'T SAVE UP MONEYHE HAD NO OTHER FUNDSTHIS IS NOT A WELL-THOUGHT-OUT PLAN OF ATHIS IS A TEENAGER WHO IS SO DEPRESSED THAT HE SPENT AUNITED STATES COURT REPORTERS
1903:19PM1WEEK IN HIS ROOM AND DIDN'T EAT OR DRINK AND HAD HIS PARENTS03:19PM2CALLING FAMILY FRIENDS WHO THEN GOT ON THE PHONE WITH HIM WHILE03:19PM3HE SOBBED AND HIM SAYING I'M SO DEPRESSED AND I CAN'T FIGURE03:19PM4OUT WHAT TO DO WITH MY LIFE.03:19PM503:19PM6PROFILE IS PRECISELY A PROFILE OF SOMEONE WHO CAN BE TURITY AND THINK ABOUT THINGS AND WHO COULD COME OUT OF03:19PM11CUSTODY AND BE PERFECTLY FINE.03:19PM1203:19PM13FACTORS THAT WE'VE BROUGHT FORTH, THE STRONG FAMILY03:19PM14INVOLVEMENT, I THINK IT'S VERY CLEAR THAT HAD ANY OF THE FAMILY03:19PM15MEMBERS ACTUALLY KNOWN THAT HIS ACT OF GETTING ON THE PLANE,03:19PM16HIS FATHER WHO HAD DEMONSTRATED SOME STRONG DISCIPLINE BEFORE03:19PM17WOULD HAVE CONTINUED TO DO THAT AND DONE EVERYTHING IN HIS03:19PM18POWER TO PREVENT HIM FROM DOING THAT.03:19PM19THAT HE COOPERATED WITH LAW ENFORCEMENT WHILE THE03:19PM20GOVERNMENT SAYS THAT THAT'S GREAT THAT HE DID THAT, I THINK03:20PM21THAT THAT SHOWS THAT MR. NATSHEH IS APPROACHABLE, THAT HE'S03:20PM22AMENABLE TO WORKING WITH OTHERS AND THAT HE WAS ATTEMPTING TO03:20PM23TRY TO MAKE RIGHT WHAT HAPPENED.03:20PM2403:20PM25THE COURT:OF COURSE THE DILEMMA WE FACE IS THEMS. MITCHELL:AND IT IS ALSO THE PROFILE OF APERSON WHO IF GIVEN A CHANCE TO GROW UP AND GIVE THEM SOMEAND THAT'S WHO I BELIEVE HE IS.WHILE THE GOVERNMENT ATTEMPTS TO DISCOUNT SOME OF THETHAT HE HAD BEEN SUFFERING FROM DEPRESSION FOR A VERY LONGPERIOD OF TIME, AND THAT WAS DEMONSTRATED BY OTHER PEOPLE.UNITED STATES COURT REPORTERS
2003:20PM1WHILE MR. NATSHEH DIDN'T HAVE LONG-TERM CONTACTS WITH DOCTORS,03:20PM2HE DID HAVE VERY RECOGNIZABLE SIGNS THAT WERE VISIBLE TO03:20PM3EVERYONE ELSE WHO COULD SAY THAT THIS IS A PERSON WHO WAS03:20PM4DEPRESSED, AND THEY WERE TRYING TO GET HIM SOME ASSISTANCE.03:20PM503:20PM6WAS GOING TO DO AND ISIL IS A VERY SCARY ORGANIZATION SO WE03:20PM7SHOULD PUT HIM IN CUSTODY FOR A LONG TIME.03:20PM803:20PM903:20PM10APPARENT THAT FIRST A LOWER SENTENCE IS APPROPRIATE FOR HIM,03:20PM11AND, IN FACT, THAT NOW THAT WE'RE GETTING AND STARTING TO LOOK03:20PM12AT MORE OF THESE TYPES OF CASES WHERE THE GOVERNMENT IS03:21PM13ACTUALLY BEING ABLE TO GO THROUGH AND DO THE PROSECUTION AND03:21PM14INVOLVING THE SCIENCE, WHICH IS SOMETHING THAT HAS RECENTLY03:21PM15STARTED HAPPENING WITH RADICALIZATION AND WHY PEOPLE BECOME03:21PM16RADICALIZED, I THINK WE'RE ON A TREND OF SEEING SOME OF THESE03:21PM17TYPES OF CASES WHERE WE START GETTING MORE DOCTORS AND MORE03:21PM18PEOPLE INVOLVED WHERE WE CAN SAY THIS IS A PERSON WHO IS OF03:21PM19CONCERN BECAUSE OF THE ACTS THAT THEY HAVE DONE AND IN THIS03:21PM20CASE I DON'T SEE THAT WITH MR. NATSHEH.03:21PM21TO PUT HIM AWAY FOR A LONG PERIOD.03:21PM2203:21PM23AMOUNT OF TIME FOR THIS OFFENSE, BUT IN COMPARISON TO THE OTHER03:21PM24TYPES OF OFFENSES THAT ARE OUT THERE, THE OTHER SENTENCES THAT03:21PM25ARE OUT THERE, I THOUGHT IT WAS A REASONABLE SENTENCE TO US.IT IS VERY EASY TO SAY THAT IT IS A SCARY THING THAT HEBUT FOR WHO HE IS AND THE STEPS THAT HE ACTUALLY TOOK INANTICIPATION OF GETTING ON THE PLANE, I THINK THAT IT'SI DON'T SEE THE NEEDFRANKLY, I THINK FOUR YEARS IS STILL A VERY SUBSTANTIALUNITED STATES COURT REPORTERS
2103:21PM1THE COURT:BEFORE I GOT TO MR. NATSHEH, MS. BECKER.03:21PM2MS. BECKER:03:21PM3ADDRESS A FEW OF THE ISSUES THAT BOTH THE COURT AND03:21PM4MS. MITCHELL RAISED.03:21PM503:22PM6MR. NATSHEH DID ACCOMPLISH SOME PROPAGANDA, IT'S IMPORTANT TO03:22PM7KNOW THE
united states court reporters 2 san jose, california december 13, 2016 p r o c e e d i n g s (court convened at 2:55 p.m.8) the clerk: calling case cr-16-166, united states versus islam said natsheh. ms. becker: elise becker for the government. good afternoon, your honor. the court: good afternoon, ms. becker. ms. mitchell: good afternoon, your .
